tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post6802168936973238063..comments2023-12-28T13:11:06.666+00:00Comments on Pics and Poems: I've not done this before...Dave Kinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-8802931637526377612009-05-19T10:05:00.000+01:002009-05-19T10:05:00.000+01:00MarkYes, pretty conclusive, were they not?<B>Mark</B>Yes, pretty conclusive, were they not?Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-7126345573425654292009-05-18T21:19:00.000+01:002009-05-18T21:19:00.000+01:00The thread of comments that I have just read are a...The thread of comments that I have just read are all the evidence I need against censoring a poem like Kirkup's.Mark Kerstetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13307987573435067415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-21809713905897764472009-05-18T12:18:00.000+01:002009-05-18T12:18:00.000+01:00Crafty Green Poet Interesting thought that it is o...<B>Crafty Green Poet </B>Interesting thought that it is on a continuum with writers such as StTheresa of Avila. I completely agree with your last observation. Thank you for the contribution. I shall try to follow it up.<br /><br /><B>Carl </B>I. too, have had non-appearing comments. The web's black hole, no doubt. I think you have demonstrated conclusively that the subject is not above your intellectual playing field. Thank you for your comments.<br /><br /><B>Sorlil</B>You are not the first to think it a wind up, but I really don't think it was, though I see why you groaned. I don't think it great art, by any means - which doesn't mean that it is not sincere art.<br /><br /><B>A Cuban in London </B>Thanks for that. I must say that I didn't see the poem as an attack on religion, I saw it as a gay person's attempt to find a religious experience for himself.<br /><br /><B>Adrian </B>Thanks for that.<br /><br /><B>bridget </B>Will do. Missed it, I'm afraid.Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-11099733163380008112009-05-18T10:04:00.000+01:002009-05-18T10:04:00.000+01:00True, bridget. It should be 'final'. I missed that...True, bridget. It should be 'final'. I missed that, too. I read it as 'final', funny enough.<br /><br />Greetings from London.A Cuban In Londonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16423293358605007539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-36668727289600743942009-05-18T09:04:00.000+01:002009-05-18T09:04:00.000+01:00Please correct "finbal" to "final"! !"Finbal" appe...Please correct "finbal" to "final"! !"Finbal" appears in numerous postings of the poem on the web, and the error keeps being perpetuated. Ta.bridget o.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-27806662021066529582009-05-18T08:33:00.000+01:002009-05-18T08:33:00.000+01:00Yes, you did Art...no bad feelings! I think it was...Yes, you did Art...no bad feelings! I think it was the 'ignorant' that hit me. I am ignorant about many things - that's one reason I read lots of the blogs and books I do (to learn more) - but then who isn't ignorant (in some area or other)? I've done quite a bit of reading (by average standards) and...well, been involved with gay people and gay culture (for want of a better word) quite a lot over the years. That's one reason I was surprised not to have heard of this man or the poem. And one reason why I wondered (just slightly) if there was something else afoot. <br /><br />Now I know. <br /><br />Good post from Dave as ever. <br />xRachel Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11803852725693518924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-50896902675874783482009-05-18T06:36:00.000+01:002009-05-18T06:36:00.000+01:00Rachel, sorry to offend. I read the comments but m...Rachel, sorry to offend. I read the comments but missed who wrote them. <br /><br />No, I certainly don't claim to have read, or even heard of, all the poets in the world. There are too many. But being gay myself, I do notice LGBT poets, and I do notice that I seem to read a lot more poets in general than many others do (several factors for why that might be so, which are irrelevant at the moment). So, again, sorry to offend. <br /><br />At the same time I won't apologize for reading a lot, and having encountered a large amount of poetry. Having the time to do it is of course one factor, and I have had that luxury at various times in my life. <br /><br />And I'll say this: I understand very personally about how Kirkup might have felt when writing this poem, and even more how he might have felt coming under attack for it, and having had to defend it, and himself. I understand very clearly what it feels like to be rejected, as poet and person, for being Other, in this case, gay. I can relate to that because I share that experience. I can also relate to the exhaustion that constantly defending oneself can bring on. I spent a lot of years making myself less, so that people would like me, by hiding aspects of myself that might offend; in other words, a personal form of censorship. Living in the closet is a major form of censorship in itself; being in the closet as a poet only makes it worse. How can a poet tell the truth if he has to always censor his own true nature in defense against the attacks of others? It's quite a paradox, ennit?<br /><br />I give Kirkup a large amount of credit for having the guts to present this poem, rather than keep it in the closet. (As has been pointed out, it does fall into a long tradition of erotic/mystical poetry; Whitman, Ginsberg, Adrienne Rich, May Sarton, and others have also written within that tradition, which is ongoing and alive, not only historical.)<br /><br />I think this is precisely where the vatic or prophetic function of some poetry enters into the picture: telling the truth, even if it's not a popular truth, even if you get attacked for telling it, whether it's a personal truth alone, or a larger truth. There's where cultural change comes from, in part, as I tried to say before.<br /><br />The issue of the quality of this particular poem in question is a separate issue from how people reacted against it, because of its content—which of course was, I think, Dave's point about censorship, which always focuses on interpretation rather than on quality of writing. As we all know, many better examples of writing have also been attacked for many of the same reasons. <br /><br />I understand better, from your and Dave's comments, about the shock/fiction/spoof and sincerity question you guys were bringing up. I appreciate your clarifications. I can see how someone might have interpreted the poem that way, but I don't it was written to be that.<br /><br />Anyway. I DID admit I was feeling irritable. :)Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-55252082933444147122009-05-18T03:50:00.000+01:002009-05-18T03:50:00.000+01:00Provoking post Dave...congratulations!Provoking post Dave...congratulations!LR Photographyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01634383283728817474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-89602897069147079922009-05-17T20:21:00.000+01:002009-05-17T20:21:00.000+01:00I read that poem by Kirkup many years ago and like...I read that poem by Kirkup many years ago and liked it. Why? The sheer chutzpah of it, the bare-faced cheekiness. There are no hang-ups in the poem. And why should there be? Christ does not belong only to Christians, but to us all, atheists and theists alike.<br /><br />Your opening lines were ever so articulate. Visual art differs from motion pictures in that key word: motion. Once it moves, we tend to believe more in the object than if it was flat on a surface.<br /><br />I have never condoned gratuitous attacks on religion, but do not like appeasement of it either. Religion is in the public arena, so for me, it is fair for people to joke and write about it. And as for a modicum of respect, it's all subjective. What offends me might not offend a religious person and viceversa.<br /><br />Many thanks for the post. This was so good that I promise a return and expand on my points above. I think your blog is a gem, dave, I really do.<br /><br />Greetings from London.A Cuban In Londonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16423293358605007539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-5379939038185501132009-05-17T19:02:00.000+01:002009-05-17T19:02:00.000+01:00the poem reads like a big wind up - that rhyme on ...the poem reads like a big wind up - that rhyme on 'young' / 'well hung' made the poet in me groan! <br /><br />I think it's just plain rubbish regardless of the fact it's about Jesus. I'm not a fan of censorship - all it does is create make a martyr out of something.Marion McCreadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04657757253873577465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-81908585215092249722009-05-17T16:58:00.000+01:002009-05-17T16:58:00.000+01:00Hi Dave,
For some reason my last few comments hav...Hi Dave,<br /><br />For some reason my last few comments have not appeared. <br /><br />Thank You once again for tackling a difficult topic in a good way. While I think this topic is above my intellectual playing field. I believe that not all art is for all people... but that the individual MUST be allowed to decide that for themselves. Censorship can start with the best intentions... but it invariably leads to thestiffling of ideas and open debate. People are as different as grains of sand so alike and yet so diferent anf it is the differences and contrasts that should be celebrated and bring us together. What makes mankind different ftom the animals is ideas and we should do everything possible to bring all ideas, not just the ones we think are good or right out to be discussed and debated. In trying to protect people from what we think is indecent we are forced to walk an ever narrower path with higher wall about us.<br /><br />So bring on all the the art even if it may offend me. I am a better person for thinking about it and deciding for myself.<br /><br />Dave - Once again thank You for making me think.<br />CarlCarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09751363280115223716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-39938838117484717992009-05-17T16:27:00.000+01:002009-05-17T16:27:00.000+01:00I think that the controversial poem in a way follo...I think that the controversial poem in a way follows on from a long tradition of almost sexual religious poetry - I'm thinking of some of the ecstatic spiritual poetry of female mystics (certainly some of St Theresa of Avila's writings on spirituality have been described as sexual metaphors). Kirkup made this more explicit and changed the implicit heterosexuality into explicit homosexuality. I don't like the poem, and I can see why it caused offence, but it is a real shame that that one poem and the surrounding libel suit etc defined Kirkup for most of his life.Crafty Green Poethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486633917197181851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-20513528598023600562009-05-17T12:43:00.000+01:002009-05-17T12:43:00.000+01:00AndyYou are in good company, it's not an easy read...<B>Andy</B>You are in good company, it's not an easy read by any means. Thanks for commenting.Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-84349014676096752562009-05-17T12:15:00.000+01:002009-05-17T12:15:00.000+01:00Helen I am sure you are right about that, though I...<B>Helen </B>I am sure you are right about that, though I must admit that it did not immediately strike me. Does that say anyhting about its value as a piece of art, I wonder?<br /><br /><B>Heather </B>Yes, I too found it disturbing, I think from several causes, though I am still unable to untangle them to my satisfaction. The unreliabilty of words' meanings is well shown in Jim's comment, I think, it is a point well made, though. Thanks for the comment.<br /><br /><B>The Weaver of Grass </B>I am again excercised by the contrast you draw out between the photograph and the painting. I have been led to think about this in the past, but have yet to resolve it in my mind. It may well have something to do with being able to relate, but there is also another unresolved question. I think: are we subconsciously putting ourselves in the place of the photographer and concerned that he (we) just got on with the job and did nothing about the ongoing atrocity - not that anything could have been done in all probability.<br /><br /><B>Cecil/DreamCreateRepeat </B>Thanks for that. Yes, I think the Jewish observance is a telling point, though it might not have been known to Kirkup.<br /><br /><B>Karen </B>I can relate to those feelings. I did experience them myself. It is so difficult to disentangle the different threads of feeling.<br /><br /><B>Lakeviewer </B>That is absolutely the case, I think. thank you for making the point.<br /><br /><B>Cloudia </B>Great to have you - and always a joy to visit yours. Thanks.<br /><br /><B>Linda </B>That is a very perceptive analogy, I think. Thanks for it.<br /><br /><B>Art </B>Thanks for that extremely well thought-through and cogently argued comment, with which I entirely agree. It reminded me of a passage by Seamus Heaney in praise of the poet Milosz in which he makes the point that he was able to portray his society as it had been, as it was and how it might become. There surely can't be any higher praise fopr an artist. Certainly I did not mean to suggest that Kirkup has been neglected solely - or even mainly - for this one poem, but that because of it his whole oeuvre has been neglected.<br /><br />As to your second comment, the suspicion is, I think, not that Kirkup is a fiction, but that the poem is not sincere in that he wrote it precisely to shock and grab the attention of the public.<br /><br /><br /><B>Lady in Red</B>Thanks very much.<br /><br /><B>Dominic </B>Grateful thanks for that: I have come across it in the past, and did look for it for my post, but without success. You have made good its lack.<br /><br /><B>Rachel </B>Thanks for that Rachel. These tricky things we call words, eh? Kirkup is certainly not one of the best known poets, and it's true: I have come across two that I had not known before this weekend.Dave Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430484174826768488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-57943622849587797162009-05-17T12:09:00.000+01:002009-05-17T12:09:00.000+01:00Hi Dave, I too, found this difficult to read, beca...Hi Dave, I too, found this difficult to read, because of my upbringing, I guess.<br /> I didn't think it would affect me, in my ripe old age, but it does/did.<br />His first poem, The Haunted Lift, on the other hand, I quite enjoyed.Andy Sewinahttp://properjoes.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-23130663706837765472009-05-17T09:30:00.000+01:002009-05-17T09:30:00.000+01:00There are an awful lot of writers out there. I don...There are an awful lot of writers out there. I don't see how we can have heard of all of them. <br /><br />I was surprised I hadn't heard of this one (considering he's English, the trial etc.) and hence my comment about the spoof (I didn't really think it was!). I wasn't offended by the poem in the slightest but I am always interested in what other people write, the decisions they make, the situations they end up in as a result.<br /><br />Maybe you've heard of every writer in the world Art but I haven't. Bully for you.Rachel Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11803852725693518924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-34419014630175274132009-05-17T08:32:00.000+01:002009-05-17T08:32:00.000+01:00James Kirkup also wrote this:
There is a new morn...James Kirkup also wrote this:<br /><br />There is a new morning, and a new way,<br />When the heart wakes in the green<br />Meadow of its choice, and the feet stray<br />Securely on their new-found paths, unseen, <br />Unhindered in the certain light of day.<br /><br />There is a new time, and a new word<br />That is the timeless dream of uncreated speech.<br />When the heart beats for the first time, like a bird<br />Battering the bright boughs of its tree; when each<br />To the other turns, all prayers are heard.<br /><br />There is a new world, and a new man<br />Who walks amazed that he so long<br />Was blind, and dumb; he who now towards the sun<br />Lifts up a trustful face in skilful song,<br />And fears no more the darkness where his day began.<br /><br />(from 6 poems to Jules Supervielle)<br /><br />We have this poem hung on our kitchen wall. I love it, although I think it is a bad poem. All the Kirkup poems I've read (not many, I must admit) seem to engage me through what they have to say rather than as poems. The words seem to come too easily - yet what he has to say is, based on what I've read so far, worth reading.Dominic Rivronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02618013365521035400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-16360318559921576382009-05-17T05:45:00.000+01:002009-05-17T05:45:00.000+01:00Dear Dave, very nice and intriguing post.
Best wis...Dear Dave, very nice and intriguing post.<br />Best wishes and have a nice Sunday,<br />RosanaThe lady in Redhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17760688385414194057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-54124846661188754802009-05-17T03:38:00.000+01:002009-05-17T03:38:00.000+01:00To the comments that regard this as a spoof, or ar...To the comments that regard this as a spoof, or are of the opinion that Kirkup is a fiction made up to make some kind of offensive joke:<br /><br />Wow. Are we really that bloody ignorant? I guess we are.<br /><br />I'm sorry. I'm irritable today. I've been dealing at every turn, today, and for the past few weeks, with this kind of critical opinionating based on total ignorance. In fact what Dave reports about Kirkup's poem regarding the lawsuit is essentially true; although there is much more to the case, all of which can be easily discovered by those not to lazy to do their own research. <br /><br />Anyone who thinks that Kirkup is somehow a spoof or a fiction made up really needs to get out more. Sorry to offend, but that really needed to be said.<br /><br />Why are we always so proud of our righteous indignation and our righteous ignorance? Especially with regard to what religious authority tells us to believe or think?<br /><br />Don't you understand how that means the censors have already won, because they're implanted their code so far into you that you've already done their work for them?<br /><br />If you are offended by a poem like Kirkup's on its own merits, out of your own informed and reasoned opinion, that is valid. But if it is merely based on received wisdom or cultural bias, then that makes my point for me about how religious authoritarianism is often regressive.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-62671815289934545542009-05-17T03:29:00.000+01:002009-05-17T03:29:00.000+01:00The problem is that "religious sensibilities" need...The problem is that "religious sensibilities" need to evolve along with the cultures they are embedded in, or they quickly become regressive and tyrannical rather than life-affirming and the touchstones of spirituality. There's a reason a great number of people have left behind the traditional organized religions they were brought up into by their families and tribes: they evolved faster than the culture and organization did. That many religious censors decry cultural evolution as not only blasphemy but inherently corrupt dramatically exemplifies how regressive they have indeed become. What was once a religion of love, forgiveness, and meeting the other as oneself, has become degraded, often enough, into a form of tyranny.<br /><br />The artists are always on the edge of change, they almost always have been, even when they served their cultural heritage and moral standards. (One might think of Grünewald again, for example.) It's not that artists encourage or demand change, although some do, it's that they observe what's actually going on, and reflect upon it, and respond to it, and thereby exemplify in their art where they see the culture going. It's not that all artists are mavericks, though some are. It's that artists are observers, not ideologues.<br /><br />To that end, I quite agree that Kirkup has been a neglected poet. But not only for this poem, but for doing what the honest, courageous poet must always do" speak the truth of what they've seen, and what they've experienced. (One might think of Wilfred Owen or of Cavafy as well, in this instance.)<br /><br />As for Lubbock, his idea that there has never been censorship of paintings is laughable in the extreme. Ask any Medieval or Renaissance artist what the Church wanted them to paint, and how much trouble they would inevitably get into when they went their own way and followed their muses. (Think of Grünewald again; or da Vinci; or Caravaggio; to name only a few.)<br /><br />His point about violence being openly depicted has merit, but it does redeem his incredible lack of insight into the history of painting, if he really believes what he says. Violence has always been more often depicted than sex: you've talked about that before here on your blog. And it's the fundamental ongoing argument in the US media, with regard to the Broadcast Code, which says that children can see bloody and violent murder depicted weekly on crime drama TV shows (CSI:New York is so graphic I usually can't watch it, and I'm the son of a surgeon!), while nudity and sexual situations are strictly controlled or outright forbidden. It seems incredibly naive to me on Lubbock's part if he actually is so unaware of the history of religion and culture as to be ignorant of why this is so. I am unimpressed. Perhaps this is why I'd rather read a poet than most critics, even if I disagree with them in the end.Art Durkeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07463180236975988432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-89671190516162573212009-05-17T00:35:00.000+01:002009-05-17T00:35:00.000+01:00I visited the National Art Gallery in Ottawa, Cana...I visited the National Art Gallery in Ottawa, Canada last summer and they had an exhibition about the rise of socialism in Europe before world war two. I found the galleries with Picasso, Dali and others that had pictures of dismembered bodies disturbing. The idea of the loss of individual rights and freedoms during this time made the art seem reactive and I understood why an artist would paint such horrific images. More disturbing were the German pastoral scenes of pinked cheeked family togetherness. These calm, beautiful and peaceful portraits did not make sense in a socialist dismembered world. Sounds of the Nazi war machines were playing while we walked through the pastoral scenes. Your blog reminded me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241402645242821612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-55500811729920671252009-05-16T23:16:00.000+01:002009-05-16T23:16:00.000+01:00What a privlege to join this thoughtful symposium,...What a privlege to join this thoughtful symposium, Dave.<br />Thanks for your visits to my blog. AlohaCloudiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853753108637831069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-69845222380898174942009-05-16T22:47:00.000+01:002009-05-16T22:47:00.000+01:00Dave, this is brave of you, but it proved your poi...Dave, this is brave of you, but it proved your point about censorship. Artists dare to speak the truth, regardless of who feels offended. Look at the situation with Obama talking at Notre Dame. We want so much to have a beautiful experience each and every time we view art, see a play. But, those pieces that shake our very core are most successful. That's how we change, by confronting what we hate.Rosaria Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03133147851332084180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-23517860221890724182009-05-16T22:17:00.000+01:002009-05-16T22:17:00.000+01:00Dave - I like the first and really dislike the sec...Dave - I like the first and really dislike the second. I actually didn't finish it but scanned enough toward the end to know I found nothing to redeem it. (Forgive the bad pun - not intended but probably engendered by the subject.) My dislike has nothing to do with feelings about homosexuality but my feelings about Christ. Like Michelle, though, I don't favor censorship at all.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12003379181294550035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2508563923634392703.post-84770935785478322792009-05-16T21:58:00.000+01:002009-05-16T21:58:00.000+01:00Interesting post as usual! The second poem was ob...Interesting post as usual! The second poem was obviously (to me) written to shock and offend, and it seems again (to me) to provoke thought and discussion. Since I like discussion and dislike censorship, I like the purpose of the poem if not the poem itself.<br /><br />As to your comment, "it seems like something that might have happened," I would have to disagree. Romans in that time normally let Jews observe their religious ritual unless it directly subverted Roman rule.<br /><br />Jewish death ritual stipulates that bodies are never left unguarded by fellow Jews (volunteers from the community called the "chevra kadisha") who prepare the body for burial and guard it from desecration.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereavement_in_Judaism#Chevra_kadisha<br /><br />The poet is free to imagine whatever he wants and thereby express his thoughts, but it is unlikely the Jewish community would have allowed even this complicated "trouble-maker's" body to be left outside of this important and ancient ritual.Cecile/DreamCreateRepeathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04566188980438273712noreply@blogger.com